Safari Sinclair's Wildlife Podcast

#008 - Charles & Uganda - Safari Sinclair Wildlife Podcast

May 07, 2020 Rachel Sinclair feat. Charles Etoru Episode 8
Safari Sinclair's Wildlife Podcast
#008 - Charles & Uganda - Safari Sinclair Wildlife Podcast
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Safari Sinclair's Wildlife Podcast
#008 - Charles & Uganda - Safari Sinclair Wildlife Podcast
May 07, 2020 Episode 8
Rachel Sinclair feat. Charles Etoru

Join me and Charles this week for a very exciting look into Uganda.

Born and raised in Eastern Uganda, Charles caught the conservation bug at an early age and has spent over 11 years in various roles and fields of conservation. He studied at the Kenya Wildlife Institute, majoring in Tourism Management and later moved to the famous College of African Wildlife Management; Mweka, in Moshi Tanzania.​

Charles is a respected primatologist and tourism specialist, who has spent over a decade in Kibale Forest, seeing it transform from a forest reserve to a national park. He was a key player in habituating chimpanzees, and developing chimp related tourism. 

Charles has managed the Kyambura Gorge and the Jane Goodall Institute Collaborative Primate Habituation Project, both under the Uganda Wildlife Authority. ​Following senior positions in national parks and chimpanzee tourism management, he decided to take a Masters in Natural Resource Management at Leicester University, U.K., with an emphasis on the bushmeat trade. 

His knowledge of East African wildlife and protected areas will give you a clear insight into sustainable conservation in this region. His experience in ornithology (the study of birds) and great apes is also second to none!​ Charles is now an advisor to a charity working with schools adjacent to protected areas in Uganda (A.C.E) and to various tourism consultancies.

Park Rangers Widows and Orphans Project: https://prwop.org/

For information about tours to Uganda please contact me:
Instagram: safraisinclair_rachel 
Email: hi@safarisinclair.co.uk




Show Notes Transcript

Join me and Charles this week for a very exciting look into Uganda.

Born and raised in Eastern Uganda, Charles caught the conservation bug at an early age and has spent over 11 years in various roles and fields of conservation. He studied at the Kenya Wildlife Institute, majoring in Tourism Management and later moved to the famous College of African Wildlife Management; Mweka, in Moshi Tanzania.​

Charles is a respected primatologist and tourism specialist, who has spent over a decade in Kibale Forest, seeing it transform from a forest reserve to a national park. He was a key player in habituating chimpanzees, and developing chimp related tourism. 

Charles has managed the Kyambura Gorge and the Jane Goodall Institute Collaborative Primate Habituation Project, both under the Uganda Wildlife Authority. ​Following senior positions in national parks and chimpanzee tourism management, he decided to take a Masters in Natural Resource Management at Leicester University, U.K., with an emphasis on the bushmeat trade. 

His knowledge of East African wildlife and protected areas will give you a clear insight into sustainable conservation in this region. His experience in ornithology (the study of birds) and great apes is also second to none!​ Charles is now an advisor to a charity working with schools adjacent to protected areas in Uganda (A.C.E) and to various tourism consultancies.

Park Rangers Widows and Orphans Project: https://prwop.org/

For information about tours to Uganda please contact me:
Instagram: safraisinclair_rachel 
Email: hi@safarisinclair.co.uk




spk_1:   0:00
Hello and welcome to Episode eight of Safari Sinclair's Wildlife Podcast. In this podcast, we're going to have an interview with trials from Uganda. Just slow down and really see two cows. Thank you very much for joining me on the podcast on DH. Just so people know Charles is somebody will be using Teo help us about Uganda tolls on DH Child has a wealth of knowledge. So I thought I'd be nice to have a cow on the show today so that we can get to know a bit more. So calls. Can you tell us a bit about yourself? Where did you grow up? Yes, I

spk_0:   0:46
grew up in Uganda in the eastern part off the country in a small town called sorority which takes about 12 loud say five hours drive from the capital Kampala. Ah, not far away from the Kenyan border. One off the small towns on DH. If you know one off the amazing places you expect, you know the child to grow up like myself.

spk_1:   1:17
That's nice that he had a nice place to grow up.

spk_0:   1:20
Yes, I had the nice upbringing on whereby Usually growing up in the countryside on DH really having that amazing experience with other Children meeting together families. So making life really, very, you know, unique. Not in there town itself, but in the rural village, which is really, really positive.

spk_1:   1:47
Good. Yeah. So what? So what age were you when you got into wildlife? What sparked your interest in wildlife?

spk_0:   1:57
I think it's very interesting. Sevilla Long Storey, but took out it shot. Really? Um I did go father, in my education after finishing my sick country there was war in the eastern part of the country and we're the schools were all forced to close on DH. I had to run away from my parents. I didn't know Ah where I would be because a the people who are sponsoring me from Netherlands one of the missionaries could not continue with responsive programme because of the war. He had to leave the country as well. So I wass left really quick notion that time. So I had to travel to Kampala on DH. I knew nobody can never be to the capital. I was only 19 years by them on DH I basically I lived with a distant relative who offered me where to stay until I managed to look for a job in the well I sector in the educational centre. Which is like, Why life's luxury within untenable. So that gave me the opportunity to actually start my career in the wildlife sector.

spk_1:   3:29
I'm very interested. So before that time, have you heard off? Um, the wildlife No, really had nothing really to do with it.

spk_0:   3:39
It's very interesting person. You're in school time, obviously, secondary school. I I belonged tto Life Club group, and that was really one off the striking issues, although usedto have while I fall around. There were lots of bags around, and obviously people looked at that as only food. That's all people to kill the animals and just extracted food. They go hunting, using meds and using catapults on That's it real as Children we used to play and, you know, we could just go out. We never knew the value until I like Second skin is when I realised this is not a value No island,

spk_1:   4:19
Yes. Yeah, So it was a good programme that could use you, um, to the wildlife that you had in in the country, or was it still quite localised?

spk_0:   4:30
It wass Quite localised, but obviously the programme or run through the whole country on And you know this programme wass all rolled out to secondary schools are Children. I mean, students could have access planning on DH some materials were there Absolutely. Yeah, that Give me the opportunity actually to say Ok, I think this is something they really I really, you know, like to follow.

spk_1:   4:55
Uh, yeah. So what is your favourite animal? Bit

spk_0:   5:01
very interestingly. I mean having been in the field, you know, I'm going through when I was actually in the in the in the wildlife department when I started my job one off my fast, interesting job Wass to rescue on rehabilitates the chimpanzees who were taken from Uganda for trade to Moscow on all these animals on this all these animals went us for us Hungary I never knew where Hungary was new in the photograph where it was located. But all these animals are to be taken through on very Moscow and then back to Uganda And it took a lot off process The Ugandan government actually too And you had that all these animals be returned to Uganda because they were actually taken for saying so. They skated and they knew that this animals were from you gone on this and we're broke. So that was one ofthe amazing. You know, start off my career. If I was working in different species of animals, this wass one off the main, you know, key areas on DH. I worked with James, and I ended up working with somebody from London's who who came with this chimps at that time. And, you know, that was you know, that start off my pinnacle for conservation.

spk_1:   6:20
Lovely. That's fantastic. So what is it about chimps that you really like?

spk_0:   6:28
Oh, the amazing part with chimps is that, you know, the deal is it's 98 point mine hour plus as the same as humans on. And you know that is everything communication. You can tell it's him something, and they will always remember that. And that is maturing. My work with seems that's what I learned about it. They will never. Even when I went now and I knew that him and I called the name, I will call that chip on that *** will definitely respond. And that affection between me and that you brings good, lasting memories. That is the amazing amazing part on some of the same steel leave today. Yeah, it is fantastic. Really Quit

spk_1:   7:20
just for the people who don't really know much about you. Can you just tell them how long chimps can actually live?

spk_0:   7:28
Chimps can live upto around their forties. Momo, we had them. I think our last ship who died in Uganda LF Educational centre in captivity wass 46 47 Nde. You know they can actually live to that age on DH. Well yes, early. I walked in in the wildlife sector with chimps with in the educational centre. But also I went directly to work in the forest whereby I was actually all of the game inhabit creating them for tourism purposes.

spk_1:   8:05
Wow, that's amazing. So I will

spk_0:   8:10
Yeah. So again, that wass one off the areas. Really? Whereby haven't University was very kin and I was actually picked. I was one off. You know the people who will speak to go and do this project. Ah, you know how to develop the tourism aspect on research purposes? Yes. Go in the air. I ended up in Cuba a forest before it became a national park on in 1996 went into became 94 went to became a national park. Went was visited. I wass there, every other person I'm trying to follow chips every morning working up at six, going for it Seems what they called the nesting when they get out of their nests on and then them I mean a nesting them in the evening, which would be like about between six through eight o'clock at night. Wow on we had to be in the forest and you have to walk from the forests where they cost will be back. Andi What? Walk back to L A cup? Well, we could say Yeah. So every day we would cut our pledges with us. Go and spend the whole day in the forest with the chips and that is typical arbitration. So today, when I see people actually go and see those chips on DH enjoying the atmosphere off tools of the station. It is my pleasure that actually we went through that journey on It's the success storey for Uganda's country. Yeah, Today yes, devastation! This wonderful on you can see these chimps a distance of about between 3 to 6 metres from you. You can take as many pictures as you can. Although we are very cautious about the wildlife diseases. Interaction between the chips under people? Yes, but with minimise that this station to ensure that it is close. I mean, there's a gap between the chips on the people visiting, which is

spk_1:   10:11
less Yes, that's fantastic. And I know we have hopefully climb to go in May had it lead to visit some of these places. Unfortunately, we'll have to postpone, but I'm very much looking forward to seeing the project in Bali and also some of the other places you're gonna take me. Teo, look at I can't wait to go. Be amazing. Really good. So, um have you have you worked with them? Jane Goodall. Lot of people know about J.

spk_0:   10:45
Yes, I've worked with Jane right away from the rescue of this chimp's ofthe matter. Jen, Personality. Three times during my time off work on, we've had quite some good introduction. Yeah, I think she is a loving, charming person on DH. I think we share the same route. Really? Spending time in the bush with the chips is amazing experience, which she did herself in the gumbo stream in turns on here. Yeah, although she has this. The project now the roots and shoots in different parts off Africa. It's amazing, you know, to interact. And Jane is a person who is We're down to us on DH. Discussing sharing, you know, experiences is her goal. Always on DH. She supports the work, wondering just too, which is really amazing. And she knows that actually, those people on the ground those I used to call him that you know, those are professors off the field because they will tell you, even if the local language they know what actually happens.

spk_1:   11:52
Yes, yeah,

spk_0:   11:53
that's why I know James so much.

spk_1:   11:56
Yeah, that's fantastic. And I think many people will agree that due to the documentary she's featured in and that's made it a lot more accessible for people in the West to learn about these animals, which can only be obscene. So can you tell us a bit about your work with the guerillas? Because I know you are should be working with us.

spk_0:   12:21
Yeah. Interesting. My work with the guerrillas started immediately when I had somewhat with the with the chimps So in 19. Um, you know, in 2000 I would say we set up a small programme with some friends from the UK You know, we're from Benson's and they were basically teachers and one off my thoughts. Wass actually, their communities living around they go to the parks on education is keen on obviously things like, um, forest destruction. Food availability for people is, you know, very important. One of the aspects was for us to introduce the education help have through supporting the local schools, undoing environmental station around the schools. So I did a lot off what with them to ensure that actually, the communities benefit on the Children themselves because they're the future of tomorrow. So we have done that. That is how I came to start working with the gorilla, the coolest directly and obviously going on between being too BACs within the same area where you know this guerrillas leave. I found out that would be relevant to ensure that you know the continent is this's prevail, you know, and that has been really very successful. So we had, like, about 400 on 10 that time on. Now the population is about 1000 plus, which is really amazing. All thought this population covers Rwanda and Virunga. Um, at the moment. So we're very pleased because joint apart force now and they're not splint off projects now going on. I have to support, you know, the conservation and support you. No network for the gorilla conservation.

spk_1:   14:29
Yeah, that's an amazing project. Was just within just 20 years. They've more than doubled, which is just us, actually. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So can you just explain to people that might not know? Is it possible for them to go and visit the guerrillas? Obviously, I know that's on our itinerary, but yes,

spk_0:   14:50
the garden visitation is very important. Obviously, we are very lucky at the moment. We have over 16 groups now open for Gordon. A truism in Uganda alone. So basically we want to win the sector. We have other sects, sectors as well within the pack where you can actually visit and the sectors we have the rangers doing the same work so on one they have been doing is habituation of gorillas on once there between the cook, the commission, it for tourism, compasses, invocation ofthe goodness takes between 2 to 5 years on people actually very active to know that what is actually happening individuals may be less. It may be between 4 to 6, maybe 4 to 10. Yes, and that is the whole Arab on this goodness always movie on us. I say it's more or less the same as chips, but with the gorillas. Actually, you can see them that this is the track where they're walking in the chips they just run. That is the whole difference on his takes time. Chimps make calls their focal very loud calls. But with the guerrillas, they make very minimal calls. So all what you leap, you fall off this just the tracks Because they were pushing the the straps and all that. So you know where they would have spent a night today. Then the next day you go and start from there and follow them continually left. So the tourism part of it, you know, six people allowed in the group you are taken by Urania. Put us always available to help you carry your luggage. Those who have failed actually to say you know, I cannot manage to go and see the guerrillas put aside their the people who have been disabled who have asked Toby actually coming to see, not because it's a wrong way. But it is just a way that somebody said, I want to fulfil my dream.

spk_1:   16:51
Yes,

spk_0:   16:52
it is very silly. They can't reach the point. Yeah, important salaries that help you makes you actually fulfil that trip. Which is an amazing experience for me. Those who can walk, even those who are fit tracking can take on the very tedious at times, depending on the group you're going to trick. There are people who have asked me. I want the toughest group. I come back and say Yes. I never thought it was like this, but my brain has been accomplished.

spk_1:   17:27
Yes, easily. Yeah,

spk_0:   17:29
There are people who would like some short distances. I have all this venture to keep people such opportunity. If they realise that close, sometimes you see them near the camp. You'd walk on life 10 minutes and you see them?

spk_1:   17:44
Yeah. Your book.

spk_0:   17:46
That is your experience. You want you got it and you've seen it. You spend your time with them and then you come back to the camp. So various opportunities, various ways you can go on

spk_1:   17:59
all No.

spk_0:   17:59
Totally. Nicholas, Once you're in the forests, there are lots of things you can actually see right away from the plant life. The bird life on general species off animals. You may see some antelopes as well. You know, if you're lucky. So amazing. But you tea for you to see the gorillas. Obviously, people go because they want to see the godless. This is a key aspect, but it's more than good. Ellis.

spk_1:   18:23
Yes. So yes. Yeah, It sounds like a wonderful experience. And I can't wait todo myself. That would be amazing.

spk_0:   18:33
It's amazing experience in life.

spk_1:   18:35
Yes. Yeah. So maybe you could just tell us a little bit about what you're doing at the moment with your conservation and education projects that you were involved in at the moment.

spk_0:   18:49
At the moment, I am a handsome all over the place.

spk_1:   18:54
Really? I have a very busy man,

spk_0:   18:57
but the city is very busy at the moment. I am involved in three key projects. The first product this world is projects idea towards conservation. And there it's more or less the same thing to be announced. I would say it's one project that's pleased into three different units. First Projects is working with the Rangers directly. What we do here is to develop capacity for the Rangers in terms ofthe training to ensure that after they have basic skills in terms ofthe toward guiding, you trained them in terms ofthe tour guiding. We also trained them in terms ofthe community relations, working with the communities. We also supported them in law enforcement research activities. You are in terms of research. It's very interesting. Visitors actually wantto experience the aspect. This is something which is key new, which I have actually instituted, that people actually want to spend more time and see what happens in the research grounds in the field. Yes, people only sit in the back off the truck on CD animals and drive off, but I don't understand. There is such a suspect, the costs involved in managing. Actually, this animal's Yeah. So what I do here is I take us a group, and when I take your secret, I book you with the research offs from the department in the pack. Locally, we take you either if this on a boat we organise on we go and that the he pozo hip account? Yeah, they like to get to the leg on. We go on a boat and we do some samples in the pickles. Oh, we could actually go out and say, Look, this this is the season whereby we're trying to do surveillance for animal diseases we want without a buffalo. We Dr Buffalo, take this basement, maybe for Bloods Ninja. So people have had different options. And actually, I have been booked for this year for such a project. Yeah, but we are on hold for this. It would have Bean the first programme, actually, weird studio. The second part of it is that I have I work with the exporters, people who have been hunting on their living around the periphery of the pack. Nobody actually understands what the problems they go through. I have been there, I have been stoned. I have been speared by some of these people. But I think that, you know, to give them back. There is a reason somebody, Toby, you don't get under it for nothing. Yes, on These people have bean organised kind of organised them. They have started and project I was working with them or instituting be hypes, and they have the beehives now. So when they collect honey, they consent to make some money. So when the visitors go, they can spend time with them and they can take the vistas around. I don't do anything myself. It is that you It's the work to explain us and why they went out, start hunting. What happened? What made them on? On what? Why they have decided to reform from putting itself? No. So that's another aspect where the visitors can actually spend some time.

spk_1:   22:39
Yes, no Russian, Yes, but that isn't really That's what I'm very interested in. I think a lot of people miss, um, what's really behind poking like you today. It must be a reason why these people do it, and a lot of the time it's feed their family or they need medicine for the family. And that's never really explained. That sounds like a fantastic project

spk_0:   23:04
here. Another aspect is obviously the last one. Within that component is the environment education, one whereby people would be interested to see probably how the school set ups on how we actually managing our packs. I'm managing to support this. Who's around Justin, You know the national parks itself? Yes. On DH. Also, Leslie, I would say the management properties. Why? Actually the pack decides to have some control measures for animals not to go to the community land by using probably trenches for elephants and all that kind of stuff. So they dig the trenches whereby the elephants cannot actually closely communities so that they can actually stay within the national back. So all these are main key areas ofthe preserving, you know, the wildlife on ensuring that the animals are safe on the community, livelihoods and their foods actual safe instead of having rangers shooting every night. Then then So the strangers are maintained by the communities and belong. So second communities gives them, They want to know me off being responsible and saying we have to maintain experiences because actually, we help minimise the problem. Uh, cooperating. So which is really interesting? Yeah.

spk_1:   24:27
Yeah, that sounds fantastic. Fantastic project you've got going on their house. I know that something quite try get nothing last night. Um, could you just tell everybody what happened?

spk_0:   24:41
Hell of rangers were killed in the longer they were ambushed away escorting a team off um, civilian population, because when you travel there now, you're supposed to be escorted by armed personnel of courtiers, and the Rangers are So when they were driving, I think from point A to B, they were ambushed on DH. 16 people were killed on out of those full of wearing this. It's a on the Congolese side is quite difficult because off the forest border there has been a group off militia fighting coming from Rhonda on DH. They are against the current government off Rhonda. So they took refuge in the Congo because they're hiding in the forests of the Congo. So that's where it happened. So basically it will be that they want the money. That's why they ambush them. And you know the skill people. It's not the first time they've been killing people a couple of times. It's quite a challenging special in the eastern part of Congo. Way are working on the project whereby we actually support the widow's off the Rangers who have been killed a widow, us who had been killed a clock, Um, especially in the corn on DH. One of the key problems is that all these people, um, living and come from the local area, just adjusting to the protected area and in order for them to maintain their livelihoods. You know, once you leave the service once you're gone, it is so difficult for the family tow. Actually start having good life because you know, you at the breadwinner of the house on you are no longer there. So families have been a struggle with, you know, with some help. So what we have been doing, it's just to establish and Michael programme, um, in terms of financing for them so that they can actually start who didn't read some income for themselves. We have over 100 from the widows walking around with the wrong guy and also in the coast. Get another gorilla park for the lowland gorilla. Not the mountain gorilla at a loss.

spk_1:   27:04
Yeah,

spk_0:   27:04
that's the difference. So in Virunga, we have the mountain going on then cause bigger. We have the lot wirelessly say same size, but the difference the face. So that's bean. A huge problem in terms ofthe supporting them. So people have been helping nationally and internationally in terms ofthe giving support to these widows. Last week afternoon, Monday, when We're in Congo last year. A rainy awas killed in August auction last year. But he left his wife pregnant. She was only three months pregnant by the time with that, of course. Now she had other two young Children. Yeah, but she needed some help. There was no way this girl was crying her husband and come from a faraway town. She knew nobody around local but halfway and established themselves Me at the back where they will live with the hospital. So we put this house storey Andi it happened that that you know, I don't know. Must Dona managed to give about 304 £100 to support, So she just delivered on Monday.

spk_1:   28:37
Oh, yeah,

spk_0:   28:39
baby, Go on DH, You know that How wass really really appreciated by? Yeah, So we been shot. What I'm trying to say here is people come with different thinking people to come with different passions in terms ofthe support. So this widows have bean working on milling. They have a healing properties and they have worked the sewing cooperative whereby they so much yours uniform for schools and self can get their money. And that money comes back to help themselves and they share. Milling Institute also helped the local communities around in terms ofthe ah walking food. When they get their food, they just get everything organised today half the so that is one off the key areas, how they way support them. So at the moment his readers are there. Where they have attacked the Rangers last night is where actually were. It is a very porous daughter because it's not far away from the Ugandan side. So it's very, very sad that actually we have been tryingto to train a few because of this coffee. We had resisted the programme to start cleaning them and I think that we really, really helpful to ensure that at least they get some basic knowledge on experience in terms ofthe developing on managing themselves. So it's like training and training. We could train them and then they go back and train the others as well. But now this has been really put down on another. But know this that now there's been an attack there. Yeah, which is really, really painful on DH. It is all Okay, So, son, And if you look at them, they're storeys, which you can't really. I have money. It's just edible. Yeah,

spk_1:   30:53
Yeah. So, um this quickly regarding wildlife. What are your hopes for the next couple of years on away? A what? To see the end of poaching and suffering. But realistically, what? What you hoping to achieve in the next couple years?

spk_0:   31:11
It's very interesting because home is mitigating measures. And as far as I know, right away from the time when I started working in the National Park's does must have kids, even peoples attitude behaviour in terms ofthe the aspects ofthe wildlife. Today everybody is very happy when they see it was very cold that time. It was like all the wars for the people, for the path, you know, with that stuff. Other ones enjoying that you know, the benefits is not the committee's. Today. The communities are very, very happy and pleased to see any visitors on DH. They know that if I have a pineapple off a widow on if I sell to the Lord, I get money. Yes, but what driver is driving? Anybody's a pineapple. He will cut that pineapple and give to his visitors, and they will test it. And they will just say Wow, What a man! Apart from Uganda and it's true, this is a reality. People drive dreamily enough gold with people and you know, we cut the pineapple and I just say that I have never tasted this pineapple in the wild. The sweet bun enough from Uganda to tiny. You know that Really nice.

spk_1:   32:23
I was that I tried them. They're lovely.

spk_0:   32:27
Exactly. So you get all this done in Uganda? That is where they're on. Do you know people always have the opportunity, you know, to have that So the communities benefitted also, In short, there is very high, um proportion off behaviour change. Yeah, and I think it's really amazing on DH out. I would say that to me the future ofthe Uganda wildlife, the future ofthe wildlife in their own world, if still not very good, because there are lots ofthe politics. I mean, political affiliations. It goes far, far away in terms ofthe decision making. Ah nde, you know, in orderto ensure that actually why life is maintained? We need a voice. We have the people you understand The integration off tourism on protection is key because people benefit directly. Yeah, there is no way. Even countries like Uganda, for example, tourism is surpassing agriculture in terms of revenue, which is amazing. Yeah, Now everybody is actually in their millions because there are lots of people who are employed in the sector. Now very many people I'm going to rape. From what Elia's tour guides, Um, those who are actually guiding visitors. The park itself benefits because the money is in the communities. Because when a vista goes 25% off the gate fees caused directly to the communities, Yes, so and that helps us to develop the infrastructure, like health units in the communities. So on That has been, ah, put down, which is really sad. Yeah. Oh, for this time I see that the future of my life is still at very difficult hands. Parting is still going on. Yeah, on DH, we have all worked together. Yes, we all have to think a week. We need the voice of the people to shout up themselves within it is for the future generations. We don't want history to happen and saying I'm showing these Children that they used to be elephants and they cannot see that this is where we're having to today. We need to actively walk hut in terms ofthe tourism. We need to build up very good partnerships. And this partnerships can be very, very helpful. Even women in the business and the business world business sector partnerships are key because information is shared. The data which comes from the field will help feel even the tourism sector. It helps feed the government. It helps feed the politicians, the special numbers, the highs and lows. And I think that's where we should be heading today. Yeah, so that will help. Did he should make us the wildlife managers in terms ofthe day today? Well,

spk_1:   36:05
yes. Yeah. No, I think what you said is very valuable. Obviously, with the cove it 19 things have changed quite a lot. But we need to remember that obviously, these things that are happening in the world are still happening. And where the cove it is here for another couple of months of the year. There's still so much stuff going on in the wild that needs our attention. So you said very valuable. Thank you very much, Charles, for your input on that before you go on. I know you're a very busy, man. I don't keep you much longer, even though I'm very much enjoying this conversation and it's okay. Can you just tell me if you had a chance to go anywhere in the world? All expenses paid. Where would you go and why? No

spk_0:   36:57
little interest Sing. Yeah, you know, travelling is Islam ng. That's what I couldn't say, You know, you know, when you travel, you learn a lot, and that is me. And everywhere I go, I learned in Lourdes on DH. I share a lot with people. Um, being in the Rayna itself, I feel so gifted that I have actually seen and not on DH travel. I have Ecuador has been my Andi. I feel that it's the scent off. And Dennis, according to Charles, now it Yes, I think that the Galapagos should be Mikey area because it is a scent off denizen and there's a lot you know to learn from although things getting down in the liquid at the moment as well. It has been launched off issues in terms ofthe management, but yeah, this high number of visitors now going, they're here. But it's really my the place, you know, to visit.

spk_1:   38:20
Yes, Galapagos has also been on my list since I was a child. So I can totally understand why you want to go there. That's been intensely the child's. Thank you so much for your time. Um, is there anything else you'd like to share with everyone, though? Are you happy?

spk_0:   38:41
I can only say that you know, if you want to travel, Uganda is less in terms of visitation numbers, you can walk more rather than driving more. And you can interact more with the lovely people on for the visitors actually visited the Uganda. They have come back and say, Wow, you know, if you're gonna have very friendly people and I don't want to blow my own trumpet but common sea and make analysis for yourself. But thank you.

spk_1:   39:25
Yeah, so thank you very much. And I can't wait to go with you as soon as all this is lifted and we can possibly go. I'm looking forward to working with you in the future, child. So thank you so much as brilliant.

spk_0:   39:39
My pleasure. Thank you so much.

spk_1:   39:41
Thank you, girls. Well, I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. If you'd like to know anything more about Uganda. Or maybe Al Photo safaris that we will be running with trolls. Please get in touch. You confined me. I'm very active on Instagram Handle is at safari Sinclair underscore, Rachel, Or you could contact us directly for my website, which is www dot safari Sinclair dot co dot UK. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please share it with your friends. And don't forget to like it. Thanks, guys. See you next time. Just slow down and really see.